Decking Beyond Expectation

OVERVIEW

In the recent podcast episode, host Angelique Robb interviews Johnny Fowler from Outlive, a company that distributes Millboard, a composite decking and siding product. Johnny discusses how he discovered Millboard during his career in Europe and the unique qualities that set it apart from other materials, such as its realistic appearance, anti-slip properties, and resistance to water and rot. They talk about the various applications of Millboard, including decking, siding, pathways, planters, and more. Johnny mentions their focus on growing the brand in the United States by targeting both professionals in the architectural and design industry and homeowners. They also discuss the pricing of Millboard compared to other composite decking products and its performance in different climates, including wet and rainy regions. The conversation highlights the versatility and quality of Millboard as a game-changer in the industry.

Transcript

Angelique
Good. Welcome to SYNKD On Air This is Angelique Robb, and I have our guest today is Johnny Fowler from outlive welcome, Johnny.

John
Thank you. Thanks for having me on, Angelique. It's good to see you, Angelique Or do you go by John? Which should I use?

John
We will go with John.

Angelique
Okay. Okay. So we met at the National ASLA conference in San Francisco last year, and I was so excited to see your booth.

John
We had a lot of conversation, it was fun to have you there.

Angelique
So the story goes, you know, I've been using millboard. It's manufactured in the UK, but I've been using it in my landscape design and build company in Scotland for probably 10 years now. And composite decking. Do you want to tell everyone a little bit about it?

John
Yeah, no, I was fortunate enough to find it. I had spent a lot of my professional career in Europe for some of the major window and door manufacturers in the United States, and was living in Brussels and you work trade shows and you see different unique products. And I always had a dream and a vision of doing something on my own. And saw Millboard and didn't anticipate getting into composite materials and composite decking, having solid wood windows and doors going that way. But I just Millboard completely separates himself from anybody else aesthetically, and in terms of the look. So when you first see it, it does really catch your eye and then once you dive into what it is, and the different areas that it applies to, it's some pretty special. Millboard is a third generation family owned company out of the UK. So if you take a map of the UK and put a dot right in the middle, it's Coventry. And they make something unlike anybody else in the composite decking and siding world. They actually poured into a physical mold of a real piece of American oak. Or they have another pattern where they poured into a mold of a 100 year old train car floor from France. So it's thicker, wider, lighter, completely impervious to water and rot and all these great properties incredibly anti-slip. And when they poured into a mold the top coat of the board itself that you actually would walk on or is actually your siding or cladding is rubber like a tennis shoe called lasting. So it's the most realistic looking. Photography looks great. Everything I say is great, but when you actually feel this material, it's pretty special and it's been fun to address all of the different applications it hits with decking, siding and cladding with like pathways and boardwalks, privacy walls. We're doing planters, benches, furniture, brands of applications. And it's so different to anything else that as we're working to grow and develop in the United States. It's hitting a lot of different angles and everything from the landscape architects show to architects that are residential, commercial architects, contractors, remodelers, homeowners. It's been fun. It's been a fun start.

Angelique
We used it more we did residential work. But yeah, I can imagine. That's what I like to tell everybody. I mean, it does look great. But it's the grip when it's wet. It's funny, because in Scotland, it's wet all the time. So you have to consider that no matter what you do. But I've been surprised that in Louisiana, which I moved to, you know, right before COVID, it rains a lot too. And so it is good to have it, you know, anywhere that it rains a lot. It's just so easy to work with and you've practically said all the points that I was gonna say.

John
I didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Angelique
No, that's okay. That's okay. But um, it's funny because we have a deck here in the house that we bought. And all I could think is well, I've got to wait till millboard comes in the country before I can redo my deck.

John
We've been distributing the whole country. I think we've shipped every state now. We're working to set up a distribution a dealer network around the United States to properly support you know, every project from a pathway to a small deck to a commercial siding project. So it's a process to set that up. The product differentiates itself and performs better than anything else I've seen. Having an automotive grade 2-K finish on the top for things like UV, or in climates like your California or your Phoenix or New Mexico or they're worried about that can attraction. It's got fiberglass shards and limestone powder from recycled quarries in the UK. So it's incredibly lightweight, easy to work with. And probably one of the coolest things about it that we get a lot of feedback when we do trade shows, and that is, we tend to set out three or four foot piece and it's pretty wide, it's eight inches wide or seven inches wide, depending on the grain pattern you pick.

There it is, directly into that top coat in that rubber, and the screw instantly disappears, the rubber flexes over. So aesthetically for the homeowner, it's gone, you don't see it. And for a contractor, it's quite easy, because you don't have to pre drill anything or use special tools or special blades. It disappears instantly. So between that and then I think what you mentioned is really important that everybody loves to spend their time outside get their fresh air, whether they're in the sunny Minnesota or there's no such four seasons, or other markets where they get more rain or different types of weather, is it it can survive all four different types of climates. No problem. And yet with the evolution of people wanting to spend more time at their home and in their backyard, certainly through COVID. Right. People are looking at different ways to enhance their space in their backyard or their property, whether it be a contractor developer, a rooftop deck, it's just fun, because you can hit all these different applications. We're not just a decking product, we're not just deciding product.

Angelique
Is it still manufactured in the UK for now, or do you think for see it always been manufactured over there? And coming over?

John 
Yeah, I mean, you know, time will tell but they're everything's manufactured in Coventry, and the UK right now we bring in containers into Georgia. And then we have stock on the East Coast and the Midwest and the West Coast. So we're trying to make sure that we're distributing that, you know, made to order where if you want something you call and then we call England and order it, it's already here. So okay, we're here we're in the United States are ready to support and supply any project and we love the variation of applications.

Angelique
Well, that's the thing. Because it's completely waterproof. I feel like you can do a lot with it. How does it compare from a cost point of view between other composites or, or high end wood products for decking?

John
We are a premium brand. So we're in that top 25% of the market, we typically line with companies like a Timber Tech vintage line of products. We're more than tracks and more than decorators. And you know, there's a lot of great companies and great brands, I just really feel that the biggest differentiator, if anybody takes anything technically away from something like this is of the composites that are out there in the decking world, a lot of them are either embossed, or off of a roller or a picture of a print. Ours is physically molded. So it's poured into a mold, there's six boards to the mold, and then we're consistently changing those molds. So what that is that when the wet mold wears out, we do a new mold a new board.

Angelique
never lose the group's character

John Fowler
And even in the process of manufacturing, the first thing to do before they pour that rubber topcoat in is they take a brush and run it across what gives it that two tone realistic look. And then the anti slip properties and you know, it's, it's been fun to do. My favorite part about it is all the applications. You take some like this, like a pathway where no slip, no slipper screws are disappeared, he never really have to touch it again, you can power wash it, or it rains on it. And it's anti slip even when it's wet, two big siding projects. So we've done you know, one of the biggest container home projects in the country, if not the world where it's all modern with international shipping containers that have it together. And then courier is all our cladding or a siding, and then a huge deck and there's just you know, stairs and benches and planters that actually self insulates.

Angelique
Where's that project?

John
That one's out in California.

Angelique
Okay. To that'd be good to get some pictures of that.

John
Yeah, we're doing some professional photography of that we're doing some professional photography of some large projects in Florida where they're big outdoor classrooms and pathways similar to what's behind me there. And then residentially obviously between siding and decking and we've done a lot of restaurants now being specified by architects it's it's a process to grow and get the brand name out there like you say you were waiting for it to come here. Now we're here and now our job is to grow that brand and find the right partners and find the right people and go from there.

Angelique
Well, so what you did say that you were surprised or what did you say that you didn't mean to see millboard and launch it in the US. What did you think you would do later before millboard?

John
I don't know if I didn't expect that I think it was I started my career by, again selling wood, windows and doors from America here selling them to Europe in the Middle East and spent a lot of time at trade shows in Europe and you just see different. There's different installation techniques. So you get some really cool and interesting product flooring and siding and decking and all these cool things. And yet, it's such a growing industry. There's the decking and siding. I mean, in the United States, it's approximately a $4 billion industry. For composite decking. It's approximately a $10 billion industry for siding. And yet, we offer something completely different. So whatever that percentage, we're able to grow this to over time. Be fun, because we have something where we're not having the same thing as everybody else where everybody beats each other up on price are installed is all the same. This is quite different, quite different install. Again, molded is such a key component for us, because it's so realistic. I gotta share this with you. I laugh the first trade show we did with Millboard in the US was in the Upper Midwest here. And when you sell the board of it's called weathered grain. And it's actually molded from 100 year old train car floor in France and nails and knots in it. So my cousin was working with me and I think he spent five to 10 minutes trying to get the nail out of the board. Enjoy it a little bit. And then I said, Hey, Danny, that's it's actually part of the mold. It goes for me. I said, Well, it was kind of fun. Why'd you think that it wasn't? So that's that's just a testament to how realistic this is. People don't with the only job I have lost with our biggest account we work with in the Upper Midwest here is the guy said there's no way that's not real. I'm not buying it and use it, sir. It's rubber. I don't know what to tell you. You're not going to get a sliver.

Angelique
When did it actually when did you launch in the US?

John
We launched two years ago.

Angelique
Oh, wow. That long ago. Okay.

John
Millboard started in 1976. They started by molding stones for hardscape. Landscapers started molding. We kind of like flat like planters, planters insulated. And they wanted to kind of a nice look for something that aesthetically, you would look like real wood, but you wouldn't have the maintenance. And then they started to mold boards in the early 2000s. And it started to export it to Australia and Russia and different climates. And I think they always obviously had their eyes on the United States, but wanted to make sure they came to the United States when they could supply the capacity. And also, you know, see where we fit in this market. So while we know we have a great opportunity for the long term. It's right now it's really about establishing the brand and partnering with the right dealers and Lumberyard specialty groups that do siding and decking and pathways and landscape architects and finding those that you can get some repeatability. And have them try it out. And then once their installers install it, you get a happy designer, architect and owner, which is not the case in the building material world.

Angelique
Yeah. Well, it's funny, because we've had some products on the podcast here that they've said that they, you know, brought their product to the landscape industry. But then it actually really took off when homeowners found it and then now they're servicing the landscape industry, but they had to build a demand outside of the industry. What are you who's your main buyer right now?

John
We're targeting both. So okay, now we're targeting the architectural group, which is getting into the designers and getting specified it's a little longer sales cycle. Yeah, they're designing things for 3, 6, 9 a year plus down the road, commercial residential, you know, things like residential rooftops and developments and multifamily for siding and decks are a large residential home. I met someone this morning, which is unbelievable property, and they're a year away. But once that designer starts to be comfortable with it, use it sees how it stalls, how it performs, aesthetically how it looks, you know, become more and more of a standard. Certainly even in the world of social media, we do a lot with Google and Facebook. Because it can go both ways, right? It can be that professional, whether it be architect contractor that finds you says I want to offer this to my clients, or a dealer that sells to contractors. We found this we want to be something different, but can also organically come from the homeowner, right where the homeowner finds on Facebook. I want to put this in my home and then they have an architect and a contractor who knows 10 other builders or 10 other architects Are 10 Other homeowners and then word spreads quickly, organically through word of mouth. So we try to kind of come at it from both ways, not for a lack of focus, but just because the influence can be from the professional side, but also in the personal side on the homeowner and a bit.

Angelique
Yeah, yeah. No, I think it is, it is a game changer. And like I said, I, you know, I thought when is millboard gonna get here. And then I didn't even know until I stumbled upon your booth. Last year, I was so excited. So I love the, you know, I saw the backdrop that you had at IBS two, that looked really stunning with the chart that was the 100 year old railway sleepers, is it, okay? And using like moss planters, and really a stunning backdrop, so and it sounded like IBS was really good for you. John Fowler IBS was great. I think after I saw you, we were at the International Tech Show in Las Vegas, which was awesome. This pool and spa show we won most innovative product.

Angelique
Oh, amazing. Congratulations.

John
Awards are great. Obviously, they're appreciated. But it's, you know, trying to drive that activity and, quote, activity and sales activity and marketing. I mean, there's so many different capacities that have an effect how you grow, but people love it. I mean, we do samples, and I gotta say it's 99%. I can say confidently, that people get the samples and they absolutely love them. Now, certainly people have different budgets and time of the project that where they need material, but we're growing the brand name, it's becoming more and more popular. And then we're working to develop that, like I say, from the Facebook, Google end of it, where people see us and say, Where can I get this through to the dealer and architectural angle or work can we specify you are, we're interested in being a dealer. So yeah, it's a it's a full, full story, because it's a huge market. But we're doing good things. And it's fun to be desired here, because not a lot of people had known about it like you did. Pretty fun when people walked by your booth. And we already know all the composite decking or whatever, and they walk by your booth and they kind of come back. And then you watch them cycle by again and they look at it, then they touch it, then they step on it, I go, What is this? That's different.

Angelique
Well, I'm I'm really excited, you know, because I know about a lot of products from Europe that aren't over in the US yet. And we have some news that we'll hopefully release in the next month about a product that we're helping to launch here in the US. So yeah, you know, there's been a lot of innovation there. And I think it's just a big step to go from, from Europe to here. So yeah, so many more people in locations. 

John
I'm going a long way. And Europe is having some tougher days right now with obviously the war and in energy costs and stuff like this, I mean, the world is evolving. And yet, the United States is such a great market. And it's you have all these different climates, you got different ways of doing business around the country, some areas that architect is rarely involved, or decides in some areas, it's that homeowner that's driving it. And then like I say, all the different areas in between. So it's fun to have something that nobody else has. And we get calls all the time. Again, nothing to be little our competition, but just people are kind of tired of the same composites that had been available. And so we're so different, not only in the photos that we're showing, but when you actually get your samples, and you can see that it's wider, thicker, lighter, and you can feel that grain on the actual sample itself, you know, that it's something completely different. And we're confident enough. That's why we sample is if you set this against anything else, you realize it's different. You don't have to be a building, and all that. 

Angelique
It's a quality. Yeah. And do you see these being used as pool decks as well? Because that's where I thought would be a really good application.

John
Yeah, we've done a few pool decks. Obviously, the big concern there is going to be heat and it is a man made product. So you're obviously usually you're competing with concrete or stamped concrete. But we're a perfect application. I say No Mother Nature's in charge. So if it's a 10 degree day, it doesn't matter what your product is around your whole you're gonna want flip flops on, but for the majority of the days, you know, we've done pooled in Texas and California and some of the Upper Midwest here, people love it because of the anti slip. They know you can't get and it's just so different and unique compared to everyday concrete, which again, concrete, concrete can expand and contract.

Angelique
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's cool. Well, I look forward to seeing that container project. Yeah, that in one of our publications.

John
Well, no, it's it's being professionally shot, we got to several jobs that are being professionally shot, you know, drones and the whole thing and it'll be something that show the work that we've done. It's interesting that the one I mentioned to you in Florida actually just a testament to the material itself. But it's an interesting story, I think, is we had just shipped our container down to Florida for install on this huge outdoor classroom. So they offloaded the container and within I think it was three or four days. The hurricane five category five hurricane in it, oh, no. So our material sat there and 12 feet of storm surge. And you would think with a lot of materials that are out there, forget about brands, but whether it'd be warp or rot or discoloration, or the wood expanding, you know, they just installed those same boards that were there and installed it put them in two weeks ago.

They power wash them off and use them. So just a testament to if it can survive 12 feet of storm surge from the Gulf of Mexico for three days. It's pretty powerful stuff in terms of performance. 

Angelique
Well, that's fantastic. Well, good. Well, we'll have to show off some of your projects and hopefully see you think live to

John
The other thing we're doing that I know you're part of the world we get a lot of opportunities for but certainly the coast of the US and little different up in the upper Midwest here because we get ice and snow and cold. But we're doing docks. That's been fun. Because you know, people what do they want with a dock they don't want to replace boards, slivers exposed screws, or you see like beach entrances in Louisiana, Texas, Florida, where those beach entrances where you're walking into a public beach entrance are typically would usually losing their slivers and our materials perfect. It's no slip, no exposed screws doesn't wrap as a warp Termites can affect it.

So we're doing more and more doc systems. And then for the upper Midwest with the x. We're doing that with aluminum, because they take them out when it becomes wintertime because the lakes freeze over. So oh, okay, can affect both those opportunities, just another segment that we've started to get more and more interested in.

Angelique
Now, one, one more thing that I forgot to ask about is there was a sub structure that millboard was selling in the UK, that was, you know, plastic, I guess, boards and and posts. Are you selling that yet? Or not yet?

John
Yep. We've been doing a lot. That's called Plasma Pro. It's a 100%, recycled subframe. It comes in. It's like it's kind of like engineered recycled PVC lumber, if you will. So it's like two by six, a two by two, a one by two and a four by four. It's an awesome product, we do a lot of it in ground. Yeah, like a golf courses where they want something right in the ground, they'll use that because you don't have the right. And they'll have it's not affected by the elements. But it doesn't span real long lengths. So for people that have decks that sit up high, we don't use it, but certainly for in ground, and then they do offer an aluminum subframe as well, hasn't been quite as popular yet just because of the evolution and growth of steel subframes United States. It's Steel's not any, necessarily any stronger, but the cost of steel versus aluminum was kind of prohibitive. So we still have opportunities for the aluminum. It's an awesome system and uninstalls real simple, but I think as materials kind of fluctuate.

And we get in ground applications, California being one where people want to have something right in the ground and not go too high. Not go too wide. We got a great solution for that. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up.

Angelique
Well, yeah, because we started using just the posts and we're still using wooden joists but the posters were the first point of rotting connection with the soil. So we're using that and then like you said, you know works just like normal wood, just screw into it, screw the wooden joists and then use the, the millboard on top.

John
We have one company in Nevada that all they do is like a four by four green treated post. Okay, that millboard around the entire perimeter because you can mitre cut it through it in the screws disappear. And you soften the edges with a screwdriver per se and then just touched up with a little spray paint and you have a post that looks like a as an example a 100 year old or from France, except there's no maintenance. Yeah, really, there's not a lot of other good solutions for wrapping posts, which is not a primary focus for a targeted dealer for instance, but it's just an awesome you know, you got these exterior posts, or they'll use our siding as almost like a soffit material on a deck and a porch. Looks like wood, no maintenance, no rot lightweight. So just a couple more different applications where we're getting opportunities and people love it because it's flexible and open to those different things. opportunity's

Angelique
Awesome well, so it's not millboard to search. It's out live, isn't it, where you can come either.

John
You can look at both millboard.com. That's the US site that does have architectural details and some more of the technical information installation shows you the install I mentioned. But certainly feel free to look at our site to outlive dot info. Our site is more focused on kind of inspiration, because we didn't feel we needed to recreate the millboard site and all the technical data that's already there. But those pull backs privacy walls, siding, decking tables, so it shows a whole range of different applications that we fit. But if you go to millboard.com, it'll just drive you to us. So you don't have to memorize either one of them.

Angelique
Okay, okay, good. Good. Well, thanks for being on the show and look forward to seeing some of your projects.

John
Great to see you Angelique. I appreciate it.