Walk on the Wild Side: Hardscape Competition

OVERVIEW

In a recent episode of SYNKD On Air, hosted by Turfs Up Radio, Angelique Robb and Steve Jones from Fortress Engineering Edging Restraints discussed the evolution of the U.S. hardscape industry. Steve provided insights into the early days of paving, reminiscing about the industry's limited designs and the groundbreaking shift when innovative designs emerged. He emphasized the tremendous growth and creativity the industry has seen, transforming landscapes into bespoke experiences for clients.

The conversation also touched upon the importance of water management in hardscaping due to changing weather patterns and increasing sustainability concerns. The episode concluded with the announcement of the "Walk on the Wild Side: Hardscaping Competition" for the 2024 SYNKD Live event, which seeks to highlight and reward innovative designs in the hardscaping field.

TRANSCRIPT

Angelique
Welcome to SYNKD On Air, hosted by Turfs Up Radio. Thank you for joining us. I'm your host, Angelique Robb from SYNKD and today I have Steve Jones from Fortress Engineering Edging Restraints. Sorry, long name. With us again, Steve and I talked about so many cool things. I had to have you back on welcome, Steve.

Steve
Well, thank you for having me. Appreciate the opportunity.

Angelique
Well, great to have you. So what we started off talking about, and I was like, Oh, my goodness, we have to do this on our podcast is you were telling me and I find this really interesting, because I haven't been in the US for the last 20 years. So I don't know a lot about the history of our landscape industry in the US, and you were just filling me in on the progression over the years. Do you want to kind of kick that off? And and, you know, let us know how the hardscape industry, how you saw it evolve and what's happened over the time?

Steve
Well, I believe, you know, from my perspective, and it's different than most others, I was introduced to paving exclusively in what I was doing. So, unlike the vast majority of our industry, that started out with some landscape or design or other types of background. And as history, I went straight into Lane block, I was laying pavers, and I think that that kind of limited, initially limited my vision of what I see what today is come to pass, which is a huge opportunity with products and things to to add to hardscape paving hardscape products, installations, you know, paving is one thing, you could go quite aways but that with design and mixing, you know, shapes, colors, and all that sort of stuff. But it is so much more. I you know, it's astounding, even to me who I would, and I I give give myself a lot of credit for knowing a lot. But sometimes when you think about what it is we've accomplished and where we are going, I find that I am woefully short of the vision necessary to take to go somewhere with this industry for the future.

Angelique
Well, that's great. It sounds like a huge win for the industry on where we're going and where we've gotten to. One of the things that you'd mentioned to me was when you started with Block Paving, how limited the options were so just talking about block paving. You were saying how far things have have moved in however many years.

Steve
I know when I started laying pavers, we had like it was exciting when we got a new shape that it three or four shapes for the entire industry. So the so we had three or four shapes, and then everybody went shaped crazy. Like, okay, but you know, the basics didn't change. We had base bedding, sand pavers, and we had a little bit of creativity in mixing a couple different shapes. It was a huge epiphany to me when we started using banding and soldier Carson stuff.

Angelique
Which are very prevalent now. But yeah, that's interesting that it was quite a new concept.

Steve
Well, if you go back to some of the old pictures in the industry, you'll see that there was no banding, there was no border, there was no, and they would just lay a blob of pavement. And that's not terribly exciting, then you look in the bathroom and see what the tile guys did. And you kind of go, Well, we could do something like that. But again, limited on the shapes. And part of the problem we had early on, was getting enough money to do you know, lots of cutting to create pieces, we needed to build a design. That was custom.

Angelique
Yeah, because it is very time consuming to make lots of cuts. And good cuts.

Steve
Oh, yeah, I did. You know, I did it out of just the pure joy of doing it. But as I lost money, I kind of kind of going well, don't be stupid Steve.

Angelique
Price is up for the cuts. Yeah.

Steve
The client goes, Why are you charging me for cuts? Because it takes time and money. So today, what I see out there is you have some contractors that truly have far surpassed anything I ever could have dreamed of, and the quality creativity of what they're doing, and how they're integrating all of the potential hardscape products in projects themselves.

Angelique
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that really, it makes a design or a landscape hardscape I should say, look more interesting, the more shapes and I mean, obviously, you want it to all blend together, but you know, it can really make the project stand out more. When I was talking to landscaping clients for my design and build business, I would say you know, it doesn't matter if you buy the most expensive paving, and you lay it all one color from afar, it might look like a parking lot, you know, it would be really boring, and even with the most expensive paving so so why not use a variety of colors and shapes and the whole patio not be one just square, you know, or a rectangle make it much more interesting than that. And I also find that mixing in decking, it helps from a cost point of view as well because if you're if you're on a slope, decking can bridge a slope really efficiently. But likewise, if you do like a three level deck and stairs, all in wood, and all the same color, it's not as interesting as if you could do it in different colors with borders, but also mixing stone with decking you know, and having the ground level be paving and maybe just the level that's taking up the slope be and decking and just you know, it just gives you so much more interest in the in the landscape.

Steve
And I think it's also important to consider the durability of the materials. Because if you're blending materials on a job to create a project each of those materials should have the same durability as your main paving. And so I struggle a little bit even though I enjoy I love wood. Wood is those things that's gonna go [inaudible].

Angelique
It moves more. Yeah.

Steve
So I but today, all of the things available to contractors and designers. And let me step back a moment. When I first started, landscape designers and architects were limp, there were only a handful around the country that was that were actually willing to make that leap of faith, to do different materials, different colors, and get creative. I remember I had one customer, I was telling her telling the wife of the customer, what I was going to do to her driveway, to get a phone call from the husband, "What did you do?" And I go, Ah, I don't know, find out that I was talking kind of wild about what we're going to do for design, and ship stuff, and got her all nervous. And it took her took her or took him a full two days to calm her down.

Angelique
And so what ended up happening on that job, Steve?

Steve
Oh, I got my way.

Angelique
You had what? Sorry.

Steve
I had to go very slow. For that I wasn't going to turn out some monstrosity that they had to live with. When we were done. Of course, everything was wonderful. But yeah, that was one of those jobs where I ended up taking that unity core STOP sign shape, where I cut all the little heads off, because they couldn't get any of the products available on the market to do anything. They're all a certain shape and size. And I got, well, this is this sucks. So I ended up we ended up wasting a couple of pallets of pavers, while I was sitting there cutting away on the cutting those little heads off. And in the end, it looks wonderful.

Angelique
Think you broke even on that job or made any money?

Steve
Oh, not at all.

Angelique
That's what I was thinking.

Steve
Well, back then people were trying to compare pavers, and the design work and stuff that could go into them as an equivalent to asphalt or concrete. Labor is labor. And so getting that across to first contract, other contractors and getting across to the homeowners and of course they gonna start going crazy on us when you see that the prices are maybe a little higher than what we talked about to get what they're looking for. And that's back when I didn't, I truly didn't know well enough how to prepare the customer for you know, the price shock. Firstly, I guess I did enough to stay in business didn't chase everyone off. Angelique But well, and it's it's a learning process, I think, yeah, the more creative you are, it means you're working, you have that uncertainty and what you're planning. So you have to get used to factoring the uncertainty in the time. So, you can cover your costs. And you can say Steve yeah, I wish I'd known that. But it was during that time, you know, when shape was King is that oh, we got a new shape. Wait a minute, we already got nine at this, you know, you know 10 years later now we have 97 shapes. And then five years later we got another 97 shapes and they're all everyone's running out of ideas and how to make shapes and fit them efficiently on a manufacturing pallet. And everybody starts calling their products giving them unique branding names which I understand and I agree with, but boy boy boy, when you get a phone call from new side of the country and they go well you know I've got that squirrel shape like I'm supposed to know and and then are the reference a color which is so subjective Well, we see chestnut, brown fire red in the hand to go, oh my god send a picture

Angelique
We will try to match it.

Steve
Or not or not.

Angelique
Or do something complimentary.

Steve
Oh, all thing was really trying to sell the customer on what she had available. I never really reached out far, couple of times to Chicago. A couple of times to kind of places that I knew that had some unique products. And we would add them to the mix. But it's also very confusing for the project owner to hit them up with colors, they have no clue about color names rather. And the same shapes. Yeah, that is, that's, that's a real big issue. And now look at us today. Most everything is derivative of square and rectangle in different sizes. Because that is truly your most creative material. Yeah, as far as building a design. And you can order those colors.

Angelique
Yeah, yeah. And I you see a lot of creativity happening in the industry. So it's fantastic to see. And also contractors building, you know, curves with square pieces, and, you know, organic shapes as well. You know, yeah, just a lot of unusual designs, which I think it shows how your, your landscape can be so personal and bespoke to the client, you know? And I think that, that justifies the cost, the extra efforts. And, you know, one of the things that I think about when I think of hardscaping is that we also have concerns about water handling because of stormwater management and like around the states, we get too much water where we don't want it and not enough where we do want it. And I think the you know, block paving, and where you do have solid paving that's not permeable, you know, considering how you juxtapose, juxtapose them against each other, so that you can handle water is important these days, too, with all the, you know, sustainability talk, and, and the, you know, droughts and harsher weather conditions that we're seeing lately. So I think, you know, paving plays a really, you know, important part in that and selecting the right systems. You know, again, there's, there's a lot of permeable products for hardscaping. Now, so, you know, there's just so much that we can do to help, you know, maybe when you have solid paving, and then, you know, let's say it's running down the slope, and then maybe you could do more of the, the, you know, ICPs, or the block paving, and catch any water, you know, overrun and then diverted around the landscape, I think I get really excited because, you know, with synced, that's what we're, we're trying to look at the whole picture we're trying to look at, from a design point of view, can you make the environment and the landscape better? And I think water is one of those, you know, tricky things because like I said it always, you always have it where you don't want it and you need it somewhere else.

Steve
Where do you, [inaudible]? Yes.

Angelique
And so I think that space is going to grow in the future, too. In fact, there's some hardscaping paving that is very permeable, that we're doing a mini event for in Atlanta in October this year. And we're also going to and that's in preparation for having Nemat SYNKD Live and SYNKD Live is February 13, through 15th 2024 in Atlanta, and I think you might be coming to Steve, are you coming?

Steve
Well, let's see how well I'm coming along to my rehabilitation.

Angelique
We'd love to have you there, because I'd love your opinion on this new product that's coming over, it's coming over from the UK. And again, you know, just what I think it's kind of like what you said, there's so many different products out there. I feel like to do great design and build work, you really have to know a little bit about everything. And I mean, that more, you know, you you specifically have a block paving background, but you know, I would say natural stone, I would say, you know, other masonry products, decking, there's composite decking things, you know, there's, there's so many products coming out, that, you know, you kind of have to know a little bit about everything, so you know, how to put it all together to optimize the landscape. And I think, you know, we can really be more environmental and sustainable when we do that, as an industry. And, and make, you know, make every project hold the water that they get on site so that it's used, where it needs to be used, and water is less of a problem, because it it will be I think, do they say it's tomorrow's gold is is water. Or maybe even today's now if you're in the West, you know?

Steve
We've seen so much with water. A lot of this goes, Wait, you know, decades deep. I mean, let's even go further back maybe 50, 100 years ago, when they started first developing water systems to deal with runoff. And it's there are some people out there very skilled people that are have the knowledge to properly implement those those things on a project. But that's a very complicated subject unto its own. So too, I word contractors, you know, when we send them pictures and ideas and stuff to go, I can't do that. You gotta go, No, you can't. No, you can't. Maybe they can sometime down the road. But right out of the gate, now you've got gets a very good set of issues that needs to be dealt with from a technical standpoint. And then of course, you. [Audio cuts out]

Angelique
Steve, you really you bring up a great point that stormwater management is a hugely complex system, I guess, you know, I was maybe referring to it more in the basic sense of, you know, what we can do as, as contractors, that's maybe, you know, having more permeable options, on any site, even a residential landscape that we can keep flooding from becoming an issue, the more permeable products we use, you know, like ICPs do, or block paving does allow some water through, you know, so I don't want to downplay the significance or the engineering required on stormwater management. Thank you for your comment.

Steve
I would hate to disrespect those guys. knowledge and education. But when you when you look to include so many things, I was thinking the other day is as you know, we look at what's on in hardscapes today, there's a so far beyond that I have personal experience with you have fire features, you have water features you have. You have ponds that have gone insane, which are beautiful, magnificent. And you know what, it's just there are there are companies out there that have mastered these skills. And man, oh man, I wish I wish I was a little bit younger.

Angelique
Well, don't we all get a get a do over?

Steve
Heard that. Let me do it again.

Angelique
You know, we're trying to show off some of those complex projects that are amazing. And so you the listeners that are out there doing those projects, please get in touch so we can show off your work. But we're also, and again, this is something that I'm not going to take the credit for. This is just Steve's idea that why we look at promoting, you know, the companies that are doing this fantastic work. And at SYNKD Live, we have an award ceremony, and we're going to add a Walk on the Wild Side: Hardscaping Competition to that for 2024. Sorry, what's that?

Steve
I liked that. Walk on the Wild [Side]. You know, leave the daily mundane stuff behind and go nuts. Yeah. You know, because I remember some of the stuff that I thought was absolutely insane, insane. I said, No one's gonna like this later was like, Why was I so reserved? So what are we beautiful today would be to see the current contractors out there. Take really grab hold of the opportunities that are sitting right in front of them. You look at a shade sails you look at, oh, my god, I can't even keep thinking of all the things that are available out there.

Angelique
Well, steel planters. So corten steel or weathering steel. I use that a lot in Scotland. I love the earthy tones that it weathers too, you know. So there's composite materials, composite decking I mentioned before, bricks, natural stone. You know, just like you said, sail shades, there's so many things that can be incorporated into a landscape project. And we want to see what people are, are doing and make it into a competition. So Steve, you've inspired us to do that. So thank you for that.

Steve
My pleasure, try and find work for you to do.

Angelique
I know. Thank you. So we are going to launch our awards for 2024 SYNKD Live event. And we're going to add this Walk on the Wild Side competition to so we'll have more on our website in the next week, week and a half, and then we'll link it back to the podcast when we have it ready. So yeah, thank you for your inspiration, and sharing the history of the hardscaping. Industry what you've seen, and you know, there's the sky's the limit. We can keep going?

Steve
Absolutely. Yep. And just don't accept what you consider as normal. Because there's no reason for it. Yeah, and certainly no reason. So the opportunities are endless. And they're great.

Angelique
yeah, go for it, huh? Yeah, well, we want to see it. And, Steve, I think you would be a perfect judge for this too. So we won't show you any names of companies or anything like that. But we'll maybe show you the projects. And you can at least be one of the judges. We don't maybe not put all the pressure on you. But um, yeah, we'd love for you to judge it as well.

Steve
Thank you for that opportunity.

Angelique
Sure, sure. Well, you know, I'm learning so much from you about the industry and appreciate all the help. And yeah, let's see where this takes us. So get those entries in as soon as we have it posted on the website, and Steve Jones with Fortress Engineering, Edging Restraint. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Steve
Thank you so much for your time.

Angelique
Sure. See you soon.

Steve
Yep. Bye now. Bye.